A Question of Faith
I’ve noticed that blogs usually involve the blogger posting a statement/opinion and people reacting to it. Less often they post a question and other people provide answers, today I’m doing the latter.
I want to ask people about faith, & Faith (note the use of the capital). I want to know what it means to them, what value it has to them in their own lives. I ask this because I see little value in faith myself, yet society at large, & even my close friends, place a great deal of stock in it. There seems to be some kind of intrinsic value in faith that I’ve missed. What is it? Please help me to understand.
BTW: I’ve been thinking about making this post for a while, but it was this particular Ozy & Mille strip that spurred me into action: http://www.ozyandmillie.org/2005/om20050822.html
posted by The Grumbler @ 7:33 PM
38 Comments:
Nanarater, I don't mean to be rude, but you did sort of choose to chase an elephant down a foxhole here. Grumbler was asking about personal faith; what it means to you and to us.
Faith, in my case, has wound up having all the definition knocked off it. I can't tell you much of anything about it, and I'm disturbingly relativistic these days. It annoys me, too, because I don't like looking at myself and recognising that, at the heart of it, my own 'belief' of the greater good is to just muddle along and assume things are going to work out. It's so... Pentecostal.
Knowing that in my background, that's an insult.
Anyway. Faith is, as I've understood it, hope for things unseen - defining something that is only hoped for as a factual base. It means that if the hope is incorrect, if it's not true, and you did need to buy eggs this morning, the entire system fails. Faith steps in where logic starts to make noises.
Let me start by saying I don't have any answers, But I'm gonna ramble a bit and see if anything useful comes out.
Hmm. I ranted about this a little in the comments of one of my recent posts.
In my mind faith is best described as a spiral. I'm going to speak about this in the context of the kind of faith I'm most comfortable in, that being religion, but faith can apply to anything.. faith that the chair your about to sit on isn't going to collapse under you for example.
To a large extent, faith can be taken as a synonym for trust. But faith is not necessarily blind faith. I can have faith in a chair, that it will be able to hold me up, it can be based on many things. It could be blind. I could just jump into it without examining it, or having tested it before. Or it could be based on reason. I look at the chair, I see how stable it is, I get an engineer friend to conduct a structural analysis of it and tell me the likelihood that it wont collapse under my weight. Nevertheless, no matter how much I look and examine, at some point I need to sit. I need to stop working with the theory and take a risk, trust that based upon what I've learnt from my examinations, this chair will hold me.
Alternately, I could trust the chair because of experience. I may have sat in it so many times before that I hardly think before sitting in it anymore, after all, its been trustworthy before, my faith has been proven by its action (Or in this case inaction, but you know what I mean) In this case we have faith in the chair, but its not so much reasoned.. If you asked me why I'm sure it wont collapse I couldn't give you anything logical to tell you why i though the way I did, other than.. Its proven to me that it wont.
From a religious point of view, I think BOTH of the above apply at the same time. And they both form part of the spiral. The more we learn of god,the more we are willing to trust and rely on him, the more we experience of his trustworthiness, the more we are willing to trust him based on experience.
Sorry, I didn't what to turn this into a leacture... apologies if it comes across that way.
Hi, time for some responces to responces:
Talen/Naranter - Naranter, talen was right (thankyou for noting that) and the first post was not exactly what i was looking for, but I am glad you posted it, as it helps to put the rest of the disscussion in perspective.
Chindogu - To abuse the chiar metaphor; there is a risk that the chair may collapasse, if that risk is too high, then you dont sit, if the risk is acceptably low, you do (though you should acknollage the risk and have a contingency plan).
As I understand it 'faith' refueses to acknowledge the risk, if you have faith in the chair, then you are dead certain it won't collapse.
From your post it seems that your faith is a afair of progressivly built trust, rather that the on/off switch that i understood (and is generally represneted) it to be.
This is a new and interesting persepctive, Thankyou.
PS: Don't worry, it didn't sound like a lecture.
See, that's where it feels odd to me. In my understanding of things, faith is borne out WITHOUT evidence; anything else is just normal understanding or trust.
Let me start by saying that I actually haven't tried to put this into words myself before.. This is all something in which I operate mostly on instinct, and your question has given me an opportunity to sit down and think through exactly how my thought processes work.
As such, this is all reasonably new thinking for me.. I'm trying to be honest and clear in what I'm saying.. but I'm sorry if it doesn't make sense, I would almost guarantee you that at least 80% of people of Faith would disagree with at least some of what I'm saying. But hey, Ask me in 6 months and I'm sure ill think i was wrong on at least a little bit of it.
All that said, this is my best attempt to put into words a further answer to your question. As much for my own use as for yours, but hey.
Ok.. Let keep going with this chair. I have a chair which I have sat in so many times, that I am as sure as I can be that it wont collapse. My faith in this chair is largely based in experience, since I have sat in it so many times before. It can get to the point where to someone else, this faith might seem unreasonable. They might point out to me what appears to them to be a structural inconsistency in the chair, but I can, confident in the experiential faith I have in the chair, confidently sit in it in spite of this.
This is the point where I'm gonna drop the chair, cause a good analogy can only go so far. Here's where I'm trying to go with this. As far as religion is concerned, religious faith can appear frequently to be blind faith. And sometimes it is. I must admit I've been challenged by this stream of conversation/conciousness, If someone were to attempt to disprove to me my faith in God, whether experientially or logically, would I give them a fair hearing? Or would I be so tied up in my own faith, that I would reject what they had to say out of hand.
Good faith, solid faith, faith that is worthwhile, is faith that is capable of changing. This faith can be either more firmly proven or disproven, resulting in a change to the way you react or act towards the thing the faith is based on/in. I honestly don't know how I would react if someone did effectivly challenge my faith, I hope that my faith could be this "good faith", that I would be willing to at least consider that I could be wrong. that my faith wouldn't be completely blind.
Sorry that was an aside.. Religious faith frequently appears to be, and sometimes is, blind. I would postulate that this is often because the person looking at this faith externally is looking at it from a completely logical, structured view, and not understanding why someone who faith is largely experientially based can't see what he sees.
Someone might raise a good logical argument, let's be specific... "Why does God allow suffering in the world then". I don't have a logical answer to this. I have theories, but that's not the point here. What I do have is a knowledge and experience of God, If he is allowing this kind of thing to happen then he is doing so for the right reasons. As far as I am concerned, based upon my knowledge and experience of God, he would NEVER needlessly do something like that, so It must be for some greater, higher purpose. I don't know for sure what that purpose is. But I trust that if I TRUELY understood it, I would think it was indeed right.
This is not a completely satisfactory answer, even for me, but It does allow me to accept that while I don't know the reasons, I have faith that they are good ones.
The other point I feel I need to make is this. There is a small gap in the chair analogy. Well not really.. Its a good analogy for faith. But there is one small thing that makes faith in God DIFFERENT, in my understanding at least. Here it is. God Doesn't change. In the course of normal faith, the thing you have faith in can change, such that a faith that was reasonable one day, can become unreasonable the next. If both the back legs of my chair fell off, I wouldn't sit down on it anymore, in spite of my prior experiences. The same does not, to my understanding of him, hold true for God. His back legs cant fall off. Consequently, experiential knowledge is far more valuable when applied to faith in God than when it is applied to other faith.
I feel like I haven't explained most of this very well, but I hope its been of /some/ use.
I'll be honest Chindogu, I'm still haveing a difficult time understanding this. Particularly interesting is the idea that '...solid faith...is faith that is capable of changing' it doesn't seem very consistent with the common view (but you noted that didn't you).
Anyway, what you've said so far is actually somwhat off topic, the origional question was not so much 'what is faith?' but rather 'what value does it have to you?' and so far you've been so caught up in defending what your faith is you seem to just have assumed that the value of it is self evident.
(back to the metaphore) What is the intrinsic value in being certain the chair wont collapse over just deciding that the risk it will collapse is small enough?
BTW Chindogu if i've made you think about something you haven't thought about before, then that is a goo thing & i'm very happy about it.
It not so much that I havent thought about it, as that I havent verbalised/clarified my thoughts.
Ill try to respond to this over the weekend.
The "Good Faith" bit was in contrast to blind faith. It's /perhaps/ a valid religious response, but as a thinking, examining, reasoning person, I find it impossible to accept.
Um, wow.
Okay, I only skimmed what other people have written but, as promised, here is my pocket of change. However, I would like a clarification. There are two interpretations of this question that I can think of and I would like to know which you actually wanted. One is that you want a personal definition of faith, what faith means to me. The other is a question about what I have faith in. To me, they are inexstricably linked but I am curious about which you are actually after.
In my opinion, faith is a blend of trust and belief. It is a matter of trusting and believing in something for which you do not have proof of an absolute and objective kind. Ultimately, it is entirely subjective. But in the end, I feel that everything is to some greater or lesser extent subjective. Thus, Matt's chair analogy (which is an extremely common analogy) holds up unless it is forced to withstand an enormous quantity of pressure (since no analogy is perfect). Many things are a matter of faith simply because precedence does not mean continuance: just because the sun came up today does not mean it will come up tomorrow. Thus, we have faith that it will until such time as it does. These are my thoughts on the abstract concept of faith as an idea.
In a religious sense, I personally have faith in a loving God who is both merciful and just. I have faith in a God who sacrificed himself, in the ultimate act of mercy, to justify us, to save us from the eternal consequences of our extremely bad behaviour. I have faith in a God who says that the most important thing is love and respect.
I have faith that love is important above all, and that love includes forgiveness, consideration, respect and responsibility. I have faith that people can always be better than they are, that people can always change. I have faith in Psi. I have faith in my friends and family. This is by no means an extensive list but it's something.
Is this what you wanted?
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Laurel-li: A little from column A, and a little from column B. What I'm really looking for (which includes your response to a degree) is why people value faith, what use is it? Of course, that begs the question ‘what exactly is faith?’. So far there has been some discussion about just that and it would seem that it is significantly more complicated than I had thought. The most basic definition (the one I was originally working with) was that faith was ‘a strongly held belief, particularly in the absence of proof’. However it would seem to me that faith is more than just ‘unfounded belief’, it is more, it is a belief held so strongly that people will take actions (and more significantly, risks) as if they had proof. This is particularly significant in that when other options are available, options that can be backed up by proof, faith allows people to make the choice giving equal (or even biased) standing to that for which they have proof, & that which they do not.
That at least, is my personal take, (influenced & evolved after the other blog responses) on just what ‘faith’ is.
Two more points:
1. Laurel-li, is expecting the sun to come up tomorrow faith, or merely expectation?
2. Chindogu, I’d like to note that there is only one thing that allow you to think that ‘His (God’s) back legs can’t fall off’, namely your faith that they can’t.
PS, I’ve removed the blogspam & the comments related to it, hope nobody was offended to see their post removed.
Ok.. Its taken a while (well not really, I've just been busy) but I'm back to say some more.
I sat down and looked at your question.. What value does faith have to me, and I found it very difficult to answer. In the same way that asking someone what value does your friendship to X provide for you. Its not something you think of in those terms.
Friendship is focused arround what you feel towards the other person, not what they give you. The same can be said of my faith. My religious faith is about, at its core, a friendship with god. Its not about what I get out of it (although I do get things out of it), It's about a mutual relationship.
But let me try to explain something else.
There is an aspect of the chair analogy that is lacking. Sitting in the chair is a binary decision. Being in a relationship with god, having faith in him is not. There are (link) levels of friendship/relationships.
Lets say that to be willing to take the first step (lets call it sitting in the chair) of a relationship with god requires you to have a certain amount of faith in him. Lets call this ammount 100%. This 100% can be made up of any combination of Blind Faith, Experiencial Faith, and Logical Faith (My terms). I think what your talking about is the balance of these. Some rare people may be able to reach 100% in just one area, but for most of us, it is a combination. (Even including some blind faith) Once you reach this 100%, you have the oportunity to learn more about God, and Experience more of the way he does relate to people in relationship with him.
Im sorry im using a lot of religious conotations, forgive me. Try to get my point rather than getting bogged down in my theology?
At which point you can go ABOVE 100%. And over the course of your relationship this 100% can grow increasingly. As it does grow, you will be in a closer and closer relationship with him. Better understanding him, why he acts the way he does, and why he is worthy of your trust.
Im not sure if im making any sence. Where am I going with this.. What does my Faith mean to me?
It means that there is someone whom I can trust to love me unconditionally. Someone who is so concerned about my wellbeing that he was willing to sacrifice the most precious thing he had to allow me a chance to come to know him, and be saved from my own innate sinfullness.
Someone powerfull enough to make me. Yet personal enough to WANT to be in a closer realtionship with me, the creater of the world, and yet my father and friend.
This may sound like a bunch of religious tripe to you, but this is the basis on which I have built my relationship with god.
Hope that helped some.
err.. the bit that says link should be a link to this
2. Chindogu, I’d like to note that there is only one thing that allow you to think that ‘His (God’s) back legs can’t fall off’, namely your faith that they can’t.
Well that and my experience of the kind of person he is and the fact they they never have before.
Okay. Firstly, not offended by post deletion. Not a problem.
Secondly, yes, the expecting the sun to come up tomorrow is faith: no matter how much you 'expect' it to, you have no definite basis for that expectation other than the fact that it always has before.
Thirdly, regarding this: "it would seem to me that faith is more than just ‘unfounded belief’, it is more, it is a belief held so strongly that people will take actions (and more significantly, risks) as if they had proof. This is particularly significant in that when other options are available, options that can be backed up by proof, faith allows people to make the choice giving equal (or even biased) standing to that for which they have proof, & that which they do not."
This is assuming that it is possible to have definitive 'proof' of anything. My feeling is that, in the end, any decision reached is made up of a blend of intellectual knowledge and gut faith, no matter what it is regarding. No matter what you cannot know everything there is to know about any given situation and thus you trust that everything will turn out okay, you trust your gut because you can't say definitively what the consequences will be of your decision. Minor (like choosing to have a doughnut instead of a real lunch) or major ("will I have major reconstructive surgery", or "will I have faith in God"), everything comes down to following what information you have and trusting that you have the rest right. Thus, 'proof' doesn't really come into it. I think nearly everything we do relates to faith on this basis. It is something day to day, not gossamer and only relating to religion or philosophy.
Fourthly, Matt, in my opinion, in terms of faith in God, that was incredibly insightful. I really appreciate the clear thought that went into that and, for the most part, I agree with you. Despite friendship circles. (Darn you and Tim and the whole tier system, damnit!)
Finally, why I value faith. Faith is instinct (which is only really wrong about as often as intellect is, and is equally important). Faith is trust. Faith is hope. To me, the only thing more important than faith is love and the two should go hand in hand. Faith is part of every day, every decision we make, every thought we have. Someone was saying the other day (that is someone out of you, Matt, Richard and Jesse, since it was on Friday) that we generally make a decision, then rationalise it, and, in my experience (both personally and in dealing with other people) this is the case. Thus, again, faith plays a role every day.
I suppose I value faith for two main reasons. One, it is very closely related to instinct, to gut knowledge, to talent, to all these things which get denounced and under-represented in our highly over-intellectual world. These are things which are important to me and, in my opinion, should be more widely recognised as having both reality and importance. Two...
Damnit, I've lost number two. Wait, it could have been this: me feeling is that 'proof' and absolutes don't exist in this world because everything is experiential. This is all very philosophical, perhaps (I mean, certainly) but, at the same time, I feel it is important to the way I, at least, experience the world. It means that everyone experiences the same thing in different ways to me, filtering the same experience (which cannot be exactly the same due to time and space interference) through their own different experiences, the way they view the world, what their day has been like before now and so on and so forth. History is experiential: written by fallible humans who had their own viewpoint to sell (welcome to a very small crash course in historiography). Those who do scientific research (no matter the area) all have their pet theories and are happy enough to mangle the results to prove their point (indeed, are often paid enormous amount by companies to do so). Theories, even if proved, get quashed because they are unpopular or would cost people money. So where do we look for facts? How do we know what 'proof' or 'facts' or 'truths' to consider the real thing?
We make a choice. We decide to have faith in particular things over others. We decide to believe that the earth is round, that Columbus or Genghis Khan existed, that the table I've put your coffee on looks the same colour and height to you as it does to me, that one person experiences the same awesome majesty of Niagara Falls as another person when standing in the same place. We choose things to have faith in so we can survive. So we don't go insane with the constant wondering what to believe, what to trust. We all have faith in something, even if it is as simple as "coffee is good" or Matt's chair. Thus, faith is as important as breath: it allows us to live in peace and hope.
. . . - - - . . .
?
Um, huh?
Sorry Naraneter, I've gone a little cold on bloging, I've found some of my reactions to be less than reasonable, & that worries me.
I will get over it though so until then, WATCH THIS SPACE.
I was meaning to get around to adding my thoughts here, and now the thread is thoroughly cold.. But I'll put forward my thoughts on it anyway.
Firstly, in terms of defining faith, I personally feel that Faith is anathema of Proof. Faith makes up for what Proof cannot. If the chair has been proven to be stable, then anyone aware of that proof no longer has Faith in it's stability, as they now have Proof. So to me, Faith is primarily a "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence". Let this be Faith(1).
Alternatively I also subscribe to another definition of Faith, being both "The body of dogma of a religion" and "A set of principles or beliefs". Essentially this version of Faith is (to me at least) synonymous with Religion. This second definition can be Faith(2).
It is Faith(1) that allows me to accept and follow my particular set of Faith(2).
I should also clarify Proof I guess, so "The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true", however more formally, "The validation of a proposition by application of specified rules, as of induction or deduction, to assumptions, axioms, and sequentially derived conclusions".. I like to keep Proof very formal and logical. Moving on..
To me, Faith(1) is a very comforting thing. It enables me to accept things I otherwise wouldn't be able to, as there is no actual Proof available. Why would I want to accept something that didn't have solid Proof? Well, here's an example.. Part of my Faith(2) is that no matter how badly I screw up in this life, I have a wonderful land of eternal happiness to go to afterwards, provided I work with some simple rules (eg, Accepting Christ into my Life, Asking for Forgivness, and Trying to Live a Christ-like Life). It's a very happy thing to accept, I'm saved, I'm choosen, I've got a happy place to go at the end of it all, guarenteed. Provided I have Faith(1).
Faith(1) means not having to always ask Why of the world. It doesn't mean we can't ask Why, just that for those things we have Faith(1) in, we don't need the answer. So it eases the mind, and let's us give more of ourselves over to other things.
Faith(1) means I can let go of a lot of things, because I accept that they will be taken care of. Although what those things are largely be dependent on what my particular Faith(2) happens to be, but Faith(1) in any particular thing means not needing to find the Proof.
So to me, Faith(1) generally means being able to accept things more readily, without requiring the Proof, which has a lot of advantages. I doesn't mean I go around readily accepting everything without Proof, just that I can substitute Proof for Faith(1) where I feel it's appropriate.
As for Faith(2), well it gives me many avenues of comfort in my life, and Faith(2) requires Faith(1). I spent a long time trying to get into Faith(2) via discovery of appropriate Proof.. It wasn't until I realised that it was only possible to obtain Faith(2) via Faith(1) that I found Faith(2).. And I mean that very literaly, it was within hours of realising that I had to accept Faith(2) with Faith(1) that I felt my first taste of what it means to live with Faith(2), and it was good.
So that's what Faith(1&2) means to me personally.
Oh, and I just wanted to add (but forgot) this given my definition of Faith(1) and Proof, you get this scene:
Faith(2) Fanboy 1: Yeah, well I had Faith(1) in Faith(2) before we had Proof.
Faith(2) Fanboy 2: Yeah, but I had Faith(1) in Faith(2) before you did!
Faith(2) Fanboy 3: Who cares, Faith(1) is stupid. You guys were just guessing. Having the Proof for Faith(2) is better.
Faith(2) is the opiate of the masses.
No, it's not. Faith(2) is not the same thing as religion.
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